Tuesday

MADISON

August 14

be some difficulty in fixing the sum; but it would be unjust to oblige the distant States to bear the expence of their members in travelling to and from the Seat of Govt.

Mr (Madison.) If the H. of Reps. is to be chosen biennially - and the Senate to be constantly dependent on the Legislatures which are chosen annually, he could not see any chance for that stability in the Genl Govt. the want of which was a principal evil in the State Govts. His fear was that the organization of the Govt supposing the Senate to be really independt. for six years, would not effect our purpose. It was nothing more than a combination of the peculiarities of two of the State Govts. which separately had been found insufficient. The Senate was formed on the model of that of Maryld. The Revisionary check, on that of N. York. What the effect of A union of these provisions might be, could not be foreseen. The enlargement of the sphere of the Government was indeed a circumstance which he thought would be favorable as he had on several occasions undertaken to show. He was however for fixing at least two extremes not to be exceeded by the Natl. Legislre. in the payment of themselves.

Mr. Gerry. There are difficulties on both sides. The observation of Mr. Butler has weight in it. On the other side, the State Legislatures may turn out the Senators by reducing their salaries. Such things have been practised.

Col. Mason. It has not yet been noticed that the clause as it now stands makes the House of Represents. also dependent on the State Legislatures; so that both Houses will be made the instruments of the politics of the States whatever they may be.

Mr. Broom could see no danger in trusting the Genl. Legislature with the payment of themselves. The State Legislatures had this power, and no complaint had been made of it

Mr. Sherman was not afraid that the Legislature would make their own wages too high; but too low, so that men ever so fit could not serve unless they were at the same time rich. He thought the best plan would be to fix a moderate allowance to be paid out of the Natl. Treasy. and let the States make such additions as they might judge fit. He moved that

Tuesday

MADISON

August 14

5 dollars per day be the sum, any further emoluments to be added by the States.

Mr. Carrol had been much surprised at seeing this clause in the Report. The dependence of both houses on the State Legislatures is compleat; especially as the members of the former are eligible to State offices. The States can now say: if you do not comply with our wishes, we will starve you: if you do we will reward you. The new Govt. in this form was nothing more than a second edition of Congress in two volumes, instead of one, and perhaps with very few amendments —

Mr Dickenson took it for granted that all were convinced of the necessity of making the Genl. Govt. independent of the prejudices, passions, and improper views of the State Legislatures. The contrary of This was effected by the section as it stands. On the other hand, there were objections agst taking a permanent standard as Wheat which had been suggested on a former occasion, as well as against leaving the matter to the pleasure of the Natl. Legislature. He proposed that an Act should be passed every 12 years by the Natl. Legislre settling the quantum of their wages. If the Genl. Govt. should be left dependent on the State Legislatures, it would be happy for us if we had never met in this Room.

Mr. Elseworth was not unwilling himself to trust the Legislature with authority to regulate their own wages, but well knew that an unlimited discretion for that purpose would produce strong, tho' perhaps not insuperable objections. He thought changes in the value of money, provided for by his motion in the words, "or the present value thereof."

Mr. L. Martin. As the Senate is to represent the States, the members of it ought to be paid by the States —

Mr. Carrol. The Senate was to represent & manage the affairs of the whole, and not to be the advocates of State interests. They ought then not to be dependent on nor paid by the States.

On the question for paying the Members of the Legislature out of the Natl Treasury, ÷

N. H. ay. Mas. no. Ct. ay. N. J. ay. Pa. ay. Del. ay. Md. ay. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. ay. [Ayes 9; noes —2.]

Tuesday

MCHENRY

August 14

Mr. Elsworth moved that the pay be fixed at 5 dollrs. (or the present value thereof per day during their attendance & for every thirty miles in travelling to & from Congress.)

Mr. Strong preferred 4 dollars, leaving the Sts at liberty to make additions

On question for fixing the pay at 5 dollars.

N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. ay. N. J. no. Pa. no. Del. no. Md. no. Va. ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no. [Ayes 2; noes-9.] Mr. Dickenson proposed that the wages of the members of both houses sd. be required to be the same.

Mr. Broome seconded him.

The Senate

Mr Ghorum. this would be unreasonable. will be detained longer from home, will be obliged to remove their families, and in time of war perhaps to sit constantly. Their allowance should certainly be higher. The members of the Senates in the States are allowed more, than those of the other house.

Mr Dickenson withdrew his motion

(It was moved & agreed to amend the Section by adding"to be ascertained by law")"

con.

9

The Section (Art VI. sec. 10) as amended- agreed to nem.

Adjd.

MCHENRY

Augt. 14.

Sect. 8 agreed to, premising the words "during the session of the legislature".10

Sect. 9. postponed.

Sect. 10. altered, that the members of both branches be paid out of the treasury of the United States, their pay to be ascertained by law.

Taken from Journal.

10 According to the Journal this action was taken on August 11.

WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 15, 1787.

JOURNAL

Wednesday August 15. 1787.

On the question to agree to the 11 Sect. of the 6 article as reported 1

it passed in the affirmative

It was moved and seconded to strike out the latter part of the 12 Sect. of the 6 article,

which passed in the affirmative 2

It was moved and seconded to amend- the 12. sect. of the 6 article as follows

"Each House shall possess the right of originating all Bills "except Bills for raising money for the purposes of revenue "or for appropriating the same and for fixing the salaries of "the Officers of Government which shall originate in the "House of representatives; but the Senate may propose or 66 concur with amendments as in other cases"

It was moved and seconded to postpone the consideration of the last amendment

which passed in the affirmative. [Ayes-6; noes - 5.] It was moved and seconded to agree to the following amendmt of the 13th sect. of the 6 article.

"Every bill which shall have passed the two Houses, "shall, before it become a law, be severally presented to the "President of the United States and to the Judges of the 'supreme court, for the revision of each — If, upon such 'revision, they shall approve of it, they shall respectively signify their approbation by signing it But, if upon such "revision, it shall appear improper to either or both to be

1 See August 6, note 4.

Not reported by Madison, but confirmed by the clause being struck out in Washington's copy of the Report of the Committee of Detail.

Wednesday

66

"passed into a law; it shall be returned, with the objections 'against it, to that House in which it shall have originated, "who shall enter the objections at large on their Journal, and "proceed to reconsider the bill: But, if, after such reconsid'eration, two thirds of that House, when either the President 'or a Majority of the Judges shall object, or three fourths, "where both shall object, shall agree to pass it, it shall, 'together with the objections, be sent to the other House, by "which it shall likewise be reconsidered and, if approved by “two thirds, or three fourths of the other House, as the case "may be, it shall become a law"

3

which passed in the negative [Ayes-3; noes - 8.] 3 It was moved and seconded to postpone the consideration of the 13th sect. of the 6th article

which passed in the negative [Ayes 2; noes-9.] It was moved and seconded to strike out the words "two thirds" and to insert the words "three fourths" in the 13th sect. of the 6 article

which passed in the affirmative [Ayes - 6; noes divided 1.]

-

4;

It was moved and seconded to amend the first clause of the 13 sect. of the 6 article as follows

"No Bill or resolve of the Senate and House of repre"sentatives shall become a Law, or have force until it shall "have been presented to the President of the United States "for his revision"

which passed in the negative. [Ayes [Ayes 3; noes - 8.] [No money shall be drawn from the Treasy of the U. S. but in conseq. of approns by law. withdrawn.

To adjourn Ayes 3; noes 7.]1 It was moved and seconded to strike out the word "seven" and to insert the words "ten ("sundays excepted") in the 13th sect. of the 6 article

which passed in the affirmative [Ayes

9; noes

2.]

3 Vote 295, Detail of Ayes and Noes, which notes that it was "Mr. Madison's amendment to the negative by addg the Judiciary".

Votes 299-300, Detail of Ayes and Noes, but there is no reason beyond that of relative position (i. e. between Votes 298 and 301) for inserting these questions here.