Monday MCHENRY August 13 MCHENRY The 2 sect. of the 4 article and the 3 sect. of the 5 article was reconsidered and lengthily debated. The 7 years however in the first and the 9 years in the latter remained and the articles stood as before reconsideration. TUESDAY, AUGUST 14, 1787. JOURNAL Tuesday August 14. 1787. It was moved and seconded to postpone the consideration of the 9. section of the 6 article in order to take up the following "The members of each House shall be incapable of hold"ing any Office under the United States for which they, or 'any other for their benefit, receive any salary, fees, or emol"uments of any kind and the acceptance of such office shall "vacate their seats respectively" divided It was moved and seconded to amend the 9 section of the 6 article by adding the following clause after the words "be elected" "except in the army or navy thereof, but in that case "their seats shall be vacated" Before the question was taken on the last amendment It was moved and seconded to postpone the consideration of the 9th section of the 6 article until the powers to be vested in the Senate are ascertained which passed unanimously in the affirmative It was moved and seconded to strike out the latter clause of the 10 sect. of the 6 article and to insert the following - "to be paid out of the Treasury of the United States" which passed in the affirmative [Ayes-9; noes — 2.] It was moved and seconded to agree to the following amendment to the 10 sect. of the 6 article "five dollars or the present value thereof per diem during "their attendance & for every thirty miles travel in going to "and returning from Congress" which passed in the negative [Ayes 2; noes — 9.] Tuesday MADISON August 14 It was moved and seconded to agree to the following amendment to the 10th sect. of the 6 article "to be ascertained by law" which passed in the affirmative On the question to agree to the 10 section of the 6 article as amended it passed in the affirmative and then the House adjourned till to-morrow at II O'Clock [291] aye no [292] aye no aye no no aye aye aye aye no no dd To postpone the considn 5 5 1 of the 9 sect. of the 6 aye aye aye aye aye aye no aye To be paid out of the 9 2 Treasury of the United States. no no no no aye no no no To agree to five dollars 29 diem MADISON Tuesday Aug. 14. In Convention Article VI. sect. 9. taken up.1 Mr. Pinkney argued that the making the members ineligible to offices was degrading to them, and the more improper as their election into the Legislature implied that they had the confidence of the people; that it was inconvenient, because the Senate might be supposed to contain the fittest men. He hoped to see that body become a School of Public Ministers, a nursery of Statesmen: that it was impolitic, because the Legislature would cease to be a magnet to the first talents 1 Article VI, Sect. 9. "The members of each House shall be ineligible to, and incapable of holding any office under the authority of the United States; during the time for which they shall respectively be elected: and the members of the Senate shall be ineligible to, and incapable of holding any such office for one year afterwards." Tuesday MADISON August 14 and abilities. He moved (to postpone the section in order to take up the following proposition viz-"the members of each House shall be incapable of holding any office under the U. S. for which they or any of others for their benefit receive any salary, fees, or emoluments of any kind — and the acceptance of such office shall vacate their seats respectively") 2 Genl. Mifflin 2ded. the motion Col. Mason ironically proposed to strike out the whole section, as a more effectual expedient for encouraging that exotic corruption which might not otherwise thrive so well in the American Soil - for compleating that Aristocracy which was probably in the contemplation of some among us. and for inviting into the Legislative service, those generous & benevolent characters who will do justice to each other's merit, by carving out offices & rewards for it. In the present state of American morals & manners, few friends it may be thought will be lost to the plan, by (the opportunity) of giving premiums to a mercenary & depraved ambition. Mr Mercer. It is a first principle in political science, that whenever the rights of property are secured, an aristocracy will grow out of it. Elective Governments also necessarily become aristocratic, because the rulers being few can & will draw emoluments for themselves from the many. The Governments of America will become aristocracies. They are so /already. The public measures are calculated for the benefit of the Governors, not of the people. The people are dissatisfied & complain. They change their rulers, and the public measures are changed, but it is only a change of one scheme of emolument to the rulers, for another. The people gain nothing by it, but an addition of instability & uncertainty to their other evils. - Governmts. can only be maintained by force or influence. The Executive has not force, deprive him of influence by rendering the members of the (Legislature) ineligible to Executive offices, and he becomes a mere phantom of authority. The Aristocratic part will not even let him in for a share of the plunder. The Legislature must & will Revised from Journal. Tuesday MADISON August 14 be composed of wealth & abilities, and the people will be governed by a Junto. The Executive ought to have a Council, being members of both Houses. Without such an influence, the war will be between the aristocracy & the people. He wished it to be between the Aristocracy & the Executive. Nothing else can protect the people agst. those speculating Legislatures which are now plundering them throughout the U. States. Mr. Gerry read a Resolution of the Legislature of Massts. passed before the Act of Congs. recommending the Convention, in which her deputies were instructed not to depart from the rotation established in the 5th. art: of Confederation, nor to agree in any case to give to the members of Congs. a capacity to hold offices under the Government. This he said was repealed in consequence of the Act of Congs. with which the State thought it proper to comply in an unqualified manner. The Sense of the State however was still the same. He could not think with Mr. Pinkney that the disqualification was degrading. Confidence is the road to tyranny. As to Ministers & Ambassadors few of them were necessary. It is the opinion of a great many that they ought to be discontinued, on our part; that none may be sent among us, & that source of influence be shut up. If the Senate were to appoint Ambassadors as seemed to be intended, they will multiply embassies for their own sakes. He was not so fond of those productions as to wish to establish nurseries for them. If they are once appointed, the House of Reps. will be obliged to provide salaries for them, whether they approve of the measures or not. If men will not serve in the Legislature without a prospect of such offices, our situation is deplorable indeed. If our best Citizens are actuated by such mercenary views, we had better chuse a single despot at once. It will be more easy to satisfy the rapacity of one than of many. According to the idea of one Gentleman (Mr. Mercer) our Government it seems is to be a Govt. of plunder. In that case it certainly would be prudent to have but one rather than many to be employed in it. We cannot be too circumspect in the formation of this System. It will be examined on all sides |