Lord Storment. The Earl of Derby. Majefty's Minifters, would ftand up and give the Commit tee the information they ought to have upon the subjećt. They had nothing before them but the naked refolutions, for the report of the Privy Council was the greatest farce and mockery that could be conceived, fince nothing could be a greater farce and mockery than an inquiry fet on foot after the propofitions had been voted by the Irifh Parliament, a inquiry the fole object of which feemed to be not to fina fault with the propofitions. His Lordship faid, they had no less than seven of His Majefty's Cabinet Minifters in that House, and yet, ftrange to tell, no information could they obtain, but were left to fit down to the flender food on their table. He lamented, that the Minifter himself was not among them, but the Nile, he obferved, flowed not there, and although they had the feptem oftia Nili, their wa ters were dried up, and fo far from fertilifing the country, not one drop of information was to be obtained from them. His Lordship ftill preffed for fome explanation. At length the queftion was agreed to, and Mr. Erskine was called to the bar. Thurfday, June 9. Lord Stormont presented a petition, figned by the manufac turers of the Chamber of Commerce, praying their Lordships would poftpone for the prefent, coming to a decifion on the Irish Propofitions, and that they might be permitted to come to the bar of that House, either by themfelves or counfel, to explain their motives for making fuch a request to their Lordships. A fhort debate arofe upon the propriety of the request: which, however, was negatived without a divifion. Tuesday, June 14. A petition from the manufacturers, members of the Chamber of Commerce, praying to be heard by themselves or counsel against the Irish propofitions was prefented, and a motion was made for granting the prayer. Lord Camden rofe and moved, "that the words for hear ing them by themselves or counfel be omitted," which caufed fome debate; but was agreed to upon a divifion of 23 against 12. Friday, June 17. The Earl of Derby informed their Lordships, that he had a petition from the manufacturers at Manchester, which he was requested to prefent, to the Houfe; but it was of fuch magnitude, as to its fize, that he could not, without aff tance, tance, carry it into the Houfe. And as the fubject matter it contained, was of the highest importance to the well being of this kingdom, he trusted, that their Lordfhips would, if he was in order, move for the affiftance of the clerk in carrying the petition to the table. He meant not, he faid, to afk any favour from the Houfe; he confidered himself in the office of his duty, as a Member of Parliament, making a motion which fhould be inferted in the Journals of the House, to prove to pofterity, that a petition figned by one hundred and twenty thousand manufacturers, had been prefented to their Lordships; that the greatest part of the fubfcribers were men of the firft eminence, and of the highest repute in their country; and that in the moft fervent manner, the prayer of that petition befeeched their Lordships not to ruin a trade on which the bread of fo many thoufands depended. Lord Thurlow left the woolfack, and addreffing himfelf to Lord ThurLord Derby, faid that the noble Earl's intention of handing low. the matter down to pofterity would be fully answered, by the motion itself, which of courfe would be entered on the Journals, ftating that a petition figned by one hundred and twenty thousand manufacturers, had been prefented against the Irish refolutions; and that thofe manufacturers were the inhabitants of manchefter. Lord Derby replied, that he thought the purpose of the mo- Ld. Derby. tion, would be answered by handing a circumstance of fo uncommon a nature to posterity, proving, by the Journals of the House, in what manner, and by what numbers of the people principally interested in the event, their Lordships were fupplicated to ufe their authority, and prevent the fatal confequences that must attend an Act of Parliament fraught with fuch a multiplicity of evils, as the one in agitation muft produce. The petition was then brought up by his Lordship and the Clerk. Thursday, June 30. The examination of witneffes relative to the Irish propofitions was concluded; and Lord Sidney without any prefatory fpeech, moved, that the House, fhould, on Friday the 8th of July, refolve itfelf into a Committee, to confider of the faid propofitions. After a short debaté, the motion made by Lord Sidney was agreed to. Friday, July 8 The order of the day having been read for the House to refolve itself into a Committee of the whole House on the commercial G 2 Lord Sid ncy. commercial refolutiens relative to Ireland, the Lord Ch cellor put the question," that the House do adjourn dur pleafure, in order to form itself into the faid Committe The fame being agreed to by their Lordships, Lord Haw took the chair. Lord Sidney then rofe, and began his fpeech with decla ing, that it was not from any want of refpect to their Lor fhips, or from any dereliction of his duty, that he finceres lamented that the arduous talk of opening to the House the purport and tendency of the refolutions, had not been place! in any hands but his own. In the debates that had already taken place upon the fubject, a question had been put to him, which, he owned he had not expected to have heard afked, and that was, What was the neceffity that made h Majefty's Minifters think it incumbent upon them to bring forward any plan for the arrangement of a commercial inte courfe with Ireland? To that queftion he conceived it would have been a fufficient answer to have moved, that the refolttion come to by their Lordships on the 17th of May, in the Year 1782, be read; he therefore moved, that it be then read. It was then read as follows: "That it is the opinion of this Houfe, that it is indifpen"fable to the interest and happiness of both kingdoms, that "the connection between them fhould be established by mu"tual confent upon a folid and permanent footing; and that "an humble addrefs fhall be prefented to his Majefty, that "his Majefty will be graciously pleafed to take fuch me"fures as his Majesty in his Royal wisdom fhall think mott "conducive to that important end." Lord Sydney rofe again, and reminded the House of the clamours, the difcontents, and the riots that had taken place in Ireland, fubfequent to the voting of this refolution. He mentioned alfo the proceedings by attachment, and all the various circumftances that manifefted the jealoufy and uneafinefs of that country, and made up the neceffity that caused Alinifters to think it their duty to lofe no time in coming forward with fome plan for cementing the two kingdoms on principles of union, harmony, and affection. With this view it was, he faid, that the eleven propofitions voted by the Parliament of Ireland, had been originally propofed, and the refolutions that had been fent up to their Lordships by the House of Commons, notwithstanding what had been faid to the contrary, he should contend were not by any means a departure from the principle of thofe propofitions. His Lordship took notice, that in the courfe of the various curfory debates that had taken place, fince the fubject had been under confideration in that Houfe, a word had beer mode ute ale of that called for fome animadverfion. It had been faid,. that the original propofitions had been negatived. This he muft deny for the reafon he had ftated, viz. because the refolutions were built on precisely the fame principle, as was made the groundwork of the propofitions that came from Ireland. He dilated on this, and declared it would have been wiser to have negatived the propofitions in a fair, an open and manly way, than thus, by infinuation, to have attempted to convey to Ireland, that they had been negatived, when the fact was undeniably otherwife. Having reasoned generally, and preliminarily, his Lordfhip proceeded to speak to the feveral refolutions, and the tendency of each. He ftated, that the first of the eleven propofitions had been, in the other Houfe, divided into two, for the purpose of voting that part of it, which food as the first refolution, unanimoufly. That, he obferved, contained a principle in which all were agreed. It reminded then for him to prove, that the remaining refolutions grew neceffarily out of the firft, and were all of them perfectly correfpondent to the principle of it, and illuftrative of its purport and meaning. This he thought he should be able to do, to the fatisfaction of their Lordships. He then animadverted on the several subsequent refolutions, and contended, that they communicated to reland a participation of our trade and mauufactures, checked and guarded only by fuch exceptions as were obviously neceffary for the fecurity of our revenue. Speaking of the fourth refolution, he took notice of the clamour that had been raifed upon it, upon two different grounds, viz. that it was either an interference with the independence of the Irish legislature, in refpect to the trade and navigation laws to be made hereafter, or that it was a refumption and revocation of the right of legiflating for herself, granted to Ireland fome years fince by the repeal of the act of the 6th of the prefent King, and that it originated in a defire to undo and recall what was then done. His Lordfhip faid, he lefs feared the former reafoning than the latter. What had been conceded ought on no account to be refumed. Ireland was to all intents and purposes an independent kingdom, and had an undoubted right to legiflate for herself. He wifhed therefore that fuch mifchievous infinuations might not be thrown out; the only aim of thofe who dealt in them could be, to roufe the jealousy of Ireland, and provoke ill humour between the two countries. The refolution did not legiflate for Ireland, it did nothing more than what Ireland had confented to already. It implied a condition, that for the good of the general interests of the empire, the laws refpecting trade and navigation should be the fame in both kingdoms. When the refolution was maturely confidered, his Lordfhip faid, he had not a doubt that Earl of that there would not be found a confiderate man in Ireland, who would not acknowledge that it was perfectly unobjectionable. After taking fome pains to justify this refolution, his Lordship proceeded to the confideration of the reft. He made flight obfervations on all of them, till he came to the twelfth, that which states that a farther duty fhall be charged on the importation of articles of manufacture adequate to countervail the internal duty chargeable on the manufacture. Upon this, his Lordfhip reafoned for fome time. He faid, he had heard noble Lords declare, that it was impoffible to impofe any duty on the importation of an article of manufacture that thould be adequate to countervail the internal duty. That was in his opinion mere affertion, and net argument. It was not abfolutely impoffible; that it was extremely difficult he was ready to admit, but it was nevertheless feafible. It must be done by a book of rates, to be made out for the purpofe, and fubmitted to the fanction of the Parliaments of the two kingdoms. He faid, it was his intention, when the Committee, in their progrefs through the refolutions, came to the eighteenth, to move for fome flight alterations, in order the better to fecure the rights of the patentees at prefent in poffeffion. He meant alfo to propose fome amendiments with regard to falt, and fome other amendments of less magnitude. He dwelt for fome time on the twentieth refolution, that which related to the appropriation of the furplus of the hereditary revenue of Ireland, in fupport of the naval force of the empire. He ftated the average amount of the hereditary revenue for given periods for a number of years paft, (from the year 1687 to the year 1784), fhewing, that it had gradually rifen confiderably. He hinted at the component parts of the hereditary revenue, and faid, it could not but grow in proportion to the growing wealth of the He mentioned the examination of the manufacturers that had been gone through at the bar, and spoke of their apprehenfions as, in a great meafure, ill founded. He made a variety of loofe remarks as he proceeded, and apologized for the unmethodical manner of his opening the subject, declaring, that although he was an old Member of Parliament, a bufinefs of fuch a large and complicated nature was new to him, and would, he doubted not, have been a difficult matter to a much abler man than he pretended to be. After a few other obfervations his Lordship concluded with moving, "That the Committee agree to the first resolution." The Earl of Carlisle obferved, that as the noble Lord, high in office, had begun with afferting that these propofitions were not only neceffary, but would be very advantageous to this country, he had paid the greatest attention to his speech, |