There is an important practical advantage arising from the provision protecting the free exercise of the parent's right. It seems to be sometimes forgotten that locality, or distance from a school, is a most serious consideration in devising a national system, especially for the poor. Now is it not almost absurd that a public school for the education of the poor should be founded on principles which would exclude from it its most natural scholars-the children in its immediate neighbourhood? And is it to be tolerated that a system should be introduced rendering it necessary that a child whose parent is willing to make provision for his religious instruction out of school hours should be compelled to go to a school miles away, often through cold and rain, when there is a State-paid school near his father's door? It is constantly assumed, in discussing this subject, that the school belongs to the person who acts as patron or manager, but this is, of course, only partially true. The school-house may belong to him, but a part of the expenditure, and generally a great part of it, is borne by the State; and the State not only may, but ought, to make conditions tending to secure the public usefulness of the school. One of these conditions certainly should be, that no rule ought to be enforced that must drive away the children of the neighbourhood from the most convenient school. Elaborate tables may be drawn up, and telling speeches may be made, showing the rarity of Protestants and Roman Catholics in the schools taught or managed by those of a different faith; but after all, they are not so rare that their case should be thought unworthy of consideration: and I can myself testify to this fact in the case of a national school, (and I have been assured by one well-acquainted with the subject that the case is a common one,) that when the exhortations or warnings used by a hostile clergyman against the national school I refer to

not of allowing, but more than this, of requiring, that these shall be taught to the children who attend. A bare allowance is but a general toleration, but a requirement involves in it all the mischief, and I would add the guilt, of an indiscriminate endowment for truth and error.

"2. I would suffer parents or natural guardians to select what parts of the education they wanted for their children. I would not force arithmetic upon them if all they wanted was writing and reading; and as little would I force the catechism, OR ANY PART OF THE RELIGIOUS INSTRUCTION THAT WAS GIVEN IN THE SCHOOL, if all they wanted was a secular education. That the managers of the Church of England schools shall have the power to impose their catechism upon the children of dissenters, and, still more, to compel their attendance on church, I regard as among the worst parts of the scheme."- Vide "Chalmers' Memoirs," by Hanna, vol. iv. pp. 493-496.

The English system, and each of the schemes put forward as substitutes for the National System in Ireland, involve the improper interference with a parent's right condemned in the latter of these remarks. Whether the certificate alluded to in the former is still required, I am unable to say; but even assuming that it is not, I think it cannot be denied that so long as under the English system aid is refused to Roman Catholic applicants, unless religion (that is, of course, the Roman Catholic religion) be taught in the school, the State does even something more than "sanction and countenance" the teaching of that faith. From all objections pointed at in the foregoing remarks, the Non-Vested system under the National Board is perfectly free.

began to be forgotten, this element of distance recommenced to operate, and several of the children returned to the condemned school. But if the present system did not exist in this country, and if the only alternative—the Denominational system-were substituted for it, the great majority of the schools becoming sectarian in their teaching, the matter of locality or distance would be found to operate so much, that very considerable numbers of persons would be compelled to let their children go without any education, or with a very limited share; unless, indeed, in the laudable desire of Irishmen to get some learning for their children, they at all hazards sent them to the only available school, where they would be subjected to the most uncontrolled proselytizing influences, and this, be it ever remembered, at the expense of the State.

I have referred to the Denominational system as the only alternative to the present one; from that I heartily hope we may be preserved. The simple consideration that in a State supporting a Protestant Establishment aid is given to a Roman Catholic school on condition, as I understand it, that the Roman Catholic faith is taught therein, or that to a Jewish school (in which, of course, is taught that our Saviour was an impostor) aid is given on condition that a single verse of the Bible is read, while aid is refused to a patron who applies for it to pay for secular instruction only, and who refrains from inculcating what the State believes to be positive error, might on principle abundantly suffice to condemn the Denominational system even in England. But however those in authority may be disposed to view the matter as relates to England, I feel bound to state my deliberate conviction that the introduction of the English system, (or any modification of it which would still place the conscientious feelings of parents and children at the mercy of patrons of schools,) and the introduction of the measures logically connected with it, into this country, would do more to rekindle dying animosities and sectarian hatred than almost anything that could be devised. Nor do I see how it would really serve any party or sect. It could hardly serve those connected with the Established Church, unless, indeed, the abolition of the Establishment in this country would serve them. No more do I believe would it serve the Roman Catholics. They have at present a large portion of the grant for national education on sufficiently easy terms under the Non-Vested system, and on terms honourable to them and to the Government. They might have no slight reason to regret the loss of the present system were what they now enjoy asked from a British Parliament as a separate grant.

I would earnestly indulge a hope that the discussion this question has received and will receive at this meeting may eventuate in the clergy of the Established Church reconsidering the question with special reference to the present Non-Vested system. I would be far from counselling them to join the Vested system for many reasons, but I do firmly maintain that as Christians and as Protestants they would be justified in joining the Non-Vested system to-day. I admit

they may, as Churchmen and as clergymen, feel difficulties which I, as a Presbyterian and a layman, cannot appreciate. But I sincerely hope that they may come to some conclusion which will enable the Board (either the present Board or a reconstituted one, I care not which) to receive them into connexion with it without violating those fundamental principles of the National System, for the protection of which, and at the same time their rightful application to the circumstances of Ireland in the face of the greatest difficulties, the members of the late Board deserve the grateful remembrance of their countrymen.

The Present Educational Position of Roman Catholics, in relation to the State, in Ireland. By PROFESSOR KAVANAGH, Catholic University, Ireland.

THE REV. Mr. Pollock has preceded me with a most able and most temperate paper, "On the Educational Position of the Established Church in Ireland," and I have now the privilege and the honour to submit to the meeting the main counterpart of the question, as it affects four millions and a half, or seventy-eight per cent. of the population, in this paper, on "The Present Educational Position of Roman Catholics, in relation to the State, in Ireland." More than six and a half times the members of the Established Church, eight and a half times the Presbyterians, sixty-seven times all other Dissenters, and three and a half times the aggregate number of Protestants of all forms, Catholics have a clear claim to be heard upon this great question.

From the standard works of the Catholic Church, the principles of Catholics, in the matter of Education, may be seen to be few, clear, and simple. They are all derived from the command-" Go, teach all nations," qualified, however, by the restriction "teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you." Faith and morals, then, are the domain of our Church. Within these, her authority is supreme, and her utterances final. Those who reject her mission, by exercise of the right of private judgment, should respect others, whose exercise of the same right harmonises with entire submission to her Divine authority. Liberal statesmen, when legislating upon subjects which would call them into play, study those principles of Catholics, a notable example of which we have in the foundation of the National System of Education. Mr. Stanley, then Chief Secretary for Ireland, now Earl of Derby, explicitly avows, in his celebrated letter to the Duke of Leinster, October, 1831, that it was owing to these principles that the Kildare Place Society was overthrown, and that it was in order to conform to leading principles of Catholics that the National System itself was founded. Lord Stanley, as I shall call him, says :

"While His Majesty's Government do full justice to the liberal

views with which the Kildare Place Society was originally instituted, as well as to the fairness with which they have, in most instances, endeavoured to carry their views into effect, they cannot but be sensible that one of the leading principles of that Society was calculated to defeat its avowed objects, as experience has subsequently proved that it has. The determination to enforce in all schools the reading of the Holy Scriptures, without note or comment, was undoubtedly taken with the purest motives, with the wish at once to connect religious with moral and literary education, and, at the same time, not to run the risk of wounding the peculiar feelings of any sect, by catechetical instruction or comments, which might tend to subjects of polemical controversy; but it seems to have been overlooked that the principles of the Roman Catholic Church (to which, in any system intended for general diffusion throughout Ireland, the bulk of the pupils must necessarily belong) were totally at variance with this principle, and that the reading of the Holy Scriptures, without note or comment, by children, must be peculiarly obnoxious to a Church which denies, even to adults, the right of unaided interpretation of the Sacred Volume, in articles of religious belief.

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Shortly after its institution, although the society prospered and extended its operations under the fostering care of the Legislature, this vital defect began to be noticed, and the Roman Catholic clergy began to exert themselves with energy and success, against a system to which they were in principle opposed, and which they feared might, in its results, lead to proselytism, even although no such object were contemplated by its promoters. When this opposition arose, founded on such grounds, it soon became manifest that the system could not become one of national education."

The Kildare Place Society enjoyed the confidence of both Protestants and Presbyterians, yet the Catholics, within two years of their emancipation, compelled its overthrow. Prelates and priests had been extensively connected with that system, the working and development of which, just as in the case of the present system, drove them into opposition. They exposed themselves to the same absurd reproach, now cast, that they are inconsistent, in opposing and demanding the overthrow of a scheme which they had supported, and with which they had been in connexion. It was not, however, the system as first tolerated by them which they opposed, but the system whose tentative working revealed its perils. It was the Kildare Place System of 1826, not that of 1819. When the Presbyterians, as one body, joined or as they themselves state, entered into an alliance with the National Board, in January, 1840, no one who understood the matter reproached them, nor could justly reproach them, as inconsistent.

The opposition of the Presbyterians had been far more violent than that of the Protestants of the Established Church. In 1832-3, the Synod of Ulster condemned the system, and, in the latter year, submitted certain propositions to Earl Grey, then Prime Minister, demanding modifications in it. In 1834, monster meetings were

held, sometimes attended by as many as 5000 persons, numbers of whom were armed; they assembled at sound of trumpet; were headed by clergymen, who opened the proceedings with prayer; each person in the procession flourished his Bible over his head; tall poles were carried, bearing boards with the words "Holy Bible School," to be set up instead of the inscription "National School," which was taken down, whenever met, and publicly burned; and the proceedings closed with thanksgiving, for the emancipation of the Bible from the thraldom of the new system. Schoolmasters were expelled from national schools, by armed parties; gun-clubs were generally established, for the protection of the Word of God; and so apprehensive of serious violence were the clerical leaders of the movement, that they enjoined abstinence from strong drinks on those who attended the monster-meetings. This intense opposition, on the part of numbers of the Presbyterian body, continued, with slight modification, until the hostility to the new system, from all sections of Protestants, had attained such magnitude that an inquiry into its working was ordered in 1836, in the House of Lords, and in 1837, in the House of Commons. In January, 1840, the Presbyterian body, formally and finally, joined the National Board; and it is of the utmost importance that the Association should thoroughly understand how the Catholics and the Presbyterians have exchanged places with each other, and reversed their original attitudes, in relation to the system.

The Presbyterians, clearly, could not stand up in this meeting, to impute inconsistency to the Catholic prelates, to the Catholic people, or to me, in opposing, in 1861, a widely different system from that which had been accepted, as an experiment, in 1831, any more than we could charge them with accepting, in 1840, a system which, for the previous nine years, they had been thus denouncing. The Presbyterians obtained their own terms,† to the disadvantage of Catholics, by which the foundation of a denominational system was laid.

In 1844, the National Board was incorporated, by Charter, when

* See evidence of Mr. (now Professor) Robert Sullivan, Inspector of National Schools; of Rev. Mr. Carlisle, Rev. Dr. Cooke, and others, before the Select Committee of the House of Commons on National Education, Ireland, in 1837.

The following are amongst the resolutions on the subject of National Education, which were proposed by Dr. Kirkpatrick, and unanimously adopted by the Presbyterian General Assembly in 1859 :—

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The attention of the Assembly having been called to the manifesto lately issued by the Roman Catholic Bishops of Ireland, on the subject of National Education, it was resolved as follows:

"I. That this Church did, in the year 1840, after much and various negotiation on the subject, consent to receive aid to its schools from the Board of Education.

"VII.—That this Assembly does, therefore, exhort and encourage our Presbyterian people to continue to receive aid from the Board of Education, so long as it adheres to its present arrangements, at the same time, watching, diligently, against any infringement of the conditions on which the compact was originally formed."